Faults and fixes

[Animo]

Hi all

I know we all love our little 500's dearly, but there may come a time when a fault may develop, (mine already has a couple of niggles, but I still love her). Would it be worth setting up a section on faults and fixes so a 'scrap book' of owners experiences can be referred to in times of need? Thought it might be a good idea. E.g. What exactly does the ECU upgrade do? or I have a knock from the bottom end of the engine, 'piston slap', what is the dealer going to do?

Ania

[.Lefteris.]

Very good idea Ania, the new forum is already up and running! :icon_thumright:

[minime911]

Hi,Is this noise always present or only under heavy load?Although there are some parts on and in your engine that might cause mechanical noise, it doesn't sound to me that your problem will be solved by simple ECU reprogramming. Might be that it is totally oversparking, if it has an engine reference signal shift, a knock sensor failure or if it is desperately running lean due to a broken O2 sensor or a fueling sytem failure. All of this can cause audible combustion knock.Most of these failures would be detected by the OBD system and your SVS light would burn or even flash.Please keep us updated on what the dealer tells you what was done.:confused:Thanks:minime911

[Animo]

Hi guys

Many thanks for your replies and I'm glad you like the idea. It will be great to get feedback from around the world! lol

Now, my Bambina....she's already been in to the dealer and they have spoken with Fiat direct as they suspect 'piston slap', Fiat have asked the dealer to call the car back in so she goes in this week for a few days and then wait really. The ball is in Fiat's court!

The ECU has been upgraded (albeit the 2nd time) and so far has solved the flashing mileage problem. The difference I have noticed with this is slightly more throttle response, but on filling up with fuel the range reading shows less miles on a full tank (around 350 now & 439 before), but responds in a more 'live' manner than before! This also seems to have improved the cold starting.

Speak to you all soon.

Ania

[minime911]

If it really has piston slap it sounds to me to get a new engine.
Hopefully they do it that way and they don't try to overhaul it by themself.
:eek::eek:

minime911

[Animo]

I'll keep you all updated, if I'm honest though I'm not sure how Fiat would react to a new engine at this stage! Still, I'm told I can be very persuasive just ask Bassett Tyres, Kwik Fit Insurance, British Gas....... nobody dares mess with Mrs. Jones and I do know a few things about cars (I've been my hubbies apprentice for about 11 years now).

Thanks for all your support. :icon_thumright:

[ewandougie]

The only problem ive had, is the RPM sensor failing in traffic, and causing the engine to die on me (ECU freaked out) It took about 10 attempts to start it, and when it started again, there was no rpm readout on the instrument cluster. I got it fixed the following day on warranty

[minime911]

Hi,
I was working now for a few years in field service in automotive industry and I suppose that they change the engine if there is a founded reason, as far as I know these people.
For Fiat it might well be interesting to see inside and possibly detect a production flaw. I have seen this before and apart if they already know that there was something wrong during a certain production timing and they already have setup a fix procedure for it, I suppose they will change it. Maybe your dealer has to insist to get the approval from his general call center where they have to get all approvals from for expensive repairs but this should'nt be a problem on a new car.
My questions are:
Is that noise clearly coming from the pistons?
Have you tried to run the engine with the air conditoning totally switched off?
(Might well be a broken AC compressor piston)
Have you listened to the engine with the gearbox in gear but the clutch pressed? (To exclude gearbox noise)
Is the oil level OK, sometimes the hydraulic lifters start making noise when the level is low, especially after a cold start?
I don't know where the canister purge valve is mounted but this little mate quite often can also be noisy especialy when mounted on the air filter housing.
Is the noise disappearing when the engine is warm?

Lots of questions....

Greetings:

minime911

[minime911]

The only problem ive had, is the RPM sensor failing in traffic, and causing the engine to die on me (ECU freaked out) It took about 10 attempts to start it, and when it started again, there was no rpm readout on the instrument cluster. I got it fixed the following day on warranty

Well:

Also this failure can lead to other damages.
There is a high risk of burning the catalytic converter if the engine reference sensor fails while driving at high speed on the highway. As from the moment of failure till engine/vehicle stop, the system still injects plenty of fuel but the spark is not present. The engine will restart after a complete power down and a quite long crank time as it will use the cam sensor signal as backup. It will need to calculate the timing on cam signal but this is by far not as precise as the engine reference. So, depending on car manufacturer there might be a limited performance mode applied in order to limit further damage.

Greetings:

minime911

[Animo]

Hi minime911

Thanks for your reply/questions which I'll answer in order:

Yes, I believe it may be, low down and from no.1 piston end.
My little Bambina does not have air con.
Have carried out the clutch test previously, (not that, but that's another issue!)
Bambina is a 1.2 pop and does not have hydraulic lifters.
Don't know about canister purge valve, where is this as haven't spotted it around the engine bay?

The noise drops off a little when it is warm but is still noisy.

Like the questions though, it keeps my brain working!

lol

[Animo]

My Bambina is going to the dealership this afternoon :eek:

(They are giving me the same loan car as last time......................... a Kia Piccanto !!! :()

[.Lefteris.]

My Bambina is going to the dealership this afternoon :eek:

(They are giving me the same loan car as last time......................... a Kia Piccanto !!! :()

:( :( :(

[ewandougie]

My Bambina is going to the dealership this afternoon :eek:

(They are giving me the same loan car as last time......................... a Kia Piccanto !!! :()

I learnt to drive in one of those, theyre god awful :-(

[VilleV]

They are a means of transport, nothing else. A mere device to get from a to b. Koreans are yet to produse a car that makes my heart tic!

[Animo]

Hi All

She is now in the dealership with strict orders NOT to wash her!!! (he he)

They have said they plan to spend the next 2 days taking the engine apart and measuring bores etc they must then provide Fiat with all the information and await their instruction.

God I miss her! :(

[ewandougie]

Hi All

She is now in the dealership with strict orders NOT to wash her!!! (he he)

They have said they plan to spend the next 2 days taking the engine apart and measuring bores etc they must then provide Fiat with all the information and await their instruction.

God I miss her! :(

You would think that it would be cheaper to simply put in a new enigne than do all these measurements :-S

[Animo]

Have spoken with the dealer, they had to order in a new piece of equipment to carry out this little job :eek: Only update so far is that bores are within tolerence they have sent the measurements of the pistons back to Fiat to see whether these are ok.... a waiting game.

[Cadbury]

Ok chaps ... what is 'piston slap' ?

[Animo]

Hi Cadbury

Piston slap is normally something that occurs in old cars with very high mileage. It is a term used for when the clearance between the bore and the piston is high, normally for wear reasons or if one or the other has worn unevenly. Too much clearance will cause a 'knock' (the skirt of the piston 'slaps' the bore) whereas too little can cause friction and can fail. This is something that should not occur on a new engine especially in this day and age where engineering has come on so far.

Hope this makes sense.

Ania

:icon_thumleft:

[minime911]

Well explained.
This can also happen if there is a mess up during engine assembly at the construction plant. Pistons are usually matched in tolerance classes.
After the engine block is bored, it is measured and the corresponding piston size set is defined and installed... except if something goes wrong :(

In fact it wouldn't be a material defect but simply a manufacturing failure.
That's maybe why they want to have this engine measured immediately at the dealership. It would only need to get a different set of pistons.

The piston slap noise comes up when the piston tilts in the cylinder bore at TDC (top dead center) when the crank shaft is changing to it's way down again just after the ignition event and at direction change at low position BDC.
But there are also other defects that can cause similar noise and at the end they disassemble a complete engine for a small cause.

Greetings:
minime911

[Cadbury]

And now I know.
Thanks for such precise explanations:icon_thumright:

[Animo]

Hi everyone

Time for an update.... the bores are fine, the pistons are not! The tolerance on the pistons is 0.06mm but mine was 200th of a mm too small (and therefore out of this tolerance level)! Fiat are replacing the pistons and parts are coming from Italy. Delivery about 5 days. The dealer has actually been really good so far, (so have Fiat) and the service manager has said that when the new ones arrive he wants to measure them first before fitting as he doesn't want the same happening again, he has actually said that he wants the measurement to be well within tolerance rather than just in. Fiat aren't giving anything away with regards to what has happened here but they were very quick to accept there was a problem.

Bearing in mind my little car has done over 7300 miles and this 'piston slap' started at about 4000 - 5000 miles which is quite high mileage for a car that hasn't been out in the UK for long and therefore not many faults have shown yet.

Still, a week or two and my precious Bambina will be home! Can't wait. biggrin2

Hats off to the dealer and Fiat so far.

[.Lefteris.]

Thats good news! :icon_thumleft:

[minime911]

Hi,

I suppose the pistons were 200th too small in diameter compared to the maximum play they were allowed to have.:confused:

Thanks for clarification..

Greetings:

minime911

[Animo]

Still no Bambina :(

Pistons have arrived and have been measured and look good, just waiting for them to be fitted, hopefully early next week. Fingers crossed.

[.Lefteris.]

:welcomeon500: Anias pistons biggrin2

[Animo]

Do you think that is actual size???? May be a little too big???? lol

[.Lefteris.]

Do you think that is actual size???? May be a little too big???? lol
lol

[Animo]

Still no Bambina :(

[wreckmaster]

What is taking the dealer so much time????

[Animo]

She is on her way home!!!!! (Have sent Paul to go and collect her as I am unwell).

Let's see how well the dealer has done.

[Animo]

She's back lollollollollollollollollollollollol

She sounds different, lovely, smooth. I am so pleased. lollollollollollollollol

[Cadbury]

Like falling in love all over again :)

Hope getting her back puts you on the road to recovery !

[wreckmaster]

She's back lollollollollollollollollollollollol

She sounds different, lovely, smooth. I am so pleased. lollollollollollollollol

Excellent Animo!!! Congratulation with getting your car back ; )
Get well real soon, so you can go cruising with it : )

[.Lefteris.]

:super: