Bad starts,it does it again...

[minime911]

Hi,

Already a few months ago I asked in the forum if someone else has had bad engine starts but nobody else could confirm this over here.
My car did it beginning of the year most often when it was a little colder outside and now it does it again.
Sometimes the engine stalls 1 or 2 times after start or it runs very rough right after for a few seconds.

I talked to the dealer today and it seems to be a well known problem.
According to them it is a problem on all 1.4 Abarth as well as the 1.4 Sport.

They cure it by changing the spark plugs and the first set they even change on warranty. It is only a temporary fix and further plug exchanges have to be paid by the customer.
To me it seems that they have a problem with the injector orientation or the spark plug location in the combustion chamber and probably the injectors spray the fuel straight on the plugs which causes poor starts.

Apparently the plugs get exchanged at every service...:eek:
The Italian way to handle this.:mad:

Greetings:

Minime911

[wreckmaster]

I am sorry to hear this Minime:( Have you tried to explain your theory to your dealer or Fiat, Luxemburg? If the problem is like you belive it is, they should be able to fix this! Shouldn`t they? How long does it take before it needs new spark plugs after changing them?

[minime911]

I am sorry to hear this Minime:( Have you tried to explain your theory to your dealer or Fiat, Luxemburg? If the problem is like you belive it is, they should be able to fix this! Shouldn`t they? How long does it take before it needs new spark plugs after changing them?

Hi,

Don't know how long new plugs last until they show the same problem.
I'll find out once they exchange them.
My car showed the problem quite from the beginning when it was new.
It was better during summer time and now it's there again.
I believe that there is no real good solution to this if it is the injector that sprays right on the plug at start.
As I am an EMS calibration engineer who is working since more than 10 years on fuel injection system programming and about 10 years before on sensors and ignition systems, I am a little fuzzy about starts and vehicle drivability.
Every engine start and every drive away is a test even on my private car.
It's professional disorder...;)
Probably other customers are more flexible on that as long as the engine starts and drives but from an evaluation point of view this is not commercial.

Maybe they are going to find a different plug type that is behaving a little better.
But this is Fiat's problem as it requires a lot of testing to find an adequate type of plugs that need to be validated...:eek:

At least it's a problem they know about.

Greetings:

minime911

[.Lefteris.]

How many KM you have on the car?
Did you also have this problem before the SS kit?

[minime911]

Hi,

The car has now 15800 Km and it was doing it right from the beginning, also before the SS kit was installed.
I received it end of January and as it was also cold outside in February and March.
The bad starts always happen when I leave it all day long on the outside parking at work.
At home it sleeps in its heated garage, of course and there is no problem.

The symptoms are:

*Sometimes stalls right after start flare.
*Quite often a bad RPM pickup after start resulting in an excessive RPM overshoot at start (2000 to 2300 RPM)
*Sometimes bad RPM pickup with rough engine running for 2 to 3 seconds (misfire) right after start.

It really has the signs of wet spark plugs.
If this would happen on a warm engine during summer time, I would be a sign of vapor lock (gas bubbles in the petrol) due to a leak in the fuel system such as external leak, injector leak or fuel pump return valve leak.

Greetings:

minime911

[.Lefteris.]

I see, mine always stay in my heated garage at nights and I have it for one year (next month) the last year we never had under 0 here in Athens so maybe thats why I haven't experience this problem yet.
Ask if Fiat give an other type of plugs for cold weather countries or try the same type of plugs but in the cold weather version, as you know all spark plugs have this option.
Also you can try a different type of fuel or a different gas station!

[wreckmaster]

Let us know what it becomes like when you change your plugs Minime! Hope they find a solution to this as it is not good for reputation of the brand:(

[minime911]

Hi,

Have got new plugs installed this morning.
Seems that it starts as it should now but I am not too confident that this will fix the problem over long time.
Since yesterday the dealer has also the instruction to put an additional washer to the ground wire of the ignition coils. This should make a better grounding.:confused:

I believe that Fiat is also fishing in the dark here.biggrin2

For the 1.4 sport there was a new programming to fix this issue and I'm sure that sooner or later it will come for the Abarth too.

Will report when the problem shows up again.:icon_thumright:

Greetings:

minime911

[.Lefteris.]

:thanks2:

[Cadbury]

I am just sitting here reminiscing about 'Aggy', my first 1969 500. She hated the damp weather, I even bought her a lovely engine blanket to help. Luckily there was a road going downhill from my house. If she didn't start... we would coast down the hill ;)

[minime911]

I am just sitting here reminiscing about 'Aggy', my first 1969 500. She hated the damp weather, I even bought her a lovely engine blanket to help. Luckily there was a road going downhill from my house. If she didn't start... we would coast down the hill ;)

Hi,

Yes, those times this was quite common but I think that 40 years later I can expect some improvement...even from Fiat...

By the way, as expected the spark plug change was as well intentioned than ineffective.
The engine started better for 2 days but is again stalling after start since yesterday at +6 degrees C with rain outside after a day of work standing on the outside parking.:mad:

I think the dealer and Fiat will have some homework to do.
I read about similar problems on a German Abarth forum....

Greetings:

Minime911

[.Lefteris.]

:(

[wreckmaster]

I am sorry to hear this Minime:( But offcourse we can always switch cars, I will take your Abarth and you can take my 1,2pop( which always starts just fine)lollol

[Cadbury]

lol

[Jose]

Hello. My name is Jose and I`m from Portugal. I`m sorry for this intrusion, but i also have an 500 abarth SS with the same problem...I changed the spark plugs, but the car also, ocasionally, stalls after cold start, and sometimes it runs rough after cold start. Today, i started the car, with 16C outside, and the car started to run rough and engine light started flashing...has soon has the car warmed a bit it ran perfect, like always do. Any ideas before taking it to the dealer? I was thinking in a bad coil. The car works perfect when warmed up...

What do you think, since you are having the same problems?

Regards,

Jose

[VilleV]

Hello Jose and welcome! Not sure i can help you tho since I dont have an Abarth, but also the 1.2 is known to have a cold start issue. I had my ECU updated last winter because of this and it did help little, but didnt remove the problem all together. Hope someone else can be more helpful!

-Ville

[minime911]

Hi Jose,

The flashing MIL light is caused by the misfire and you have now a failure code in the memory. Actually it should warn you that you might damage your catalytic converter.
The failure might well be caused by a damaged coil however I believe that it would not disappear once the engine is warmed up.
My car was showing the same problem but the misfire was usually disappeared a few seconds after start.
Tests with different types of fuel as well as new spark plugs couldn't fix the problem.
A few weeks ago they installed a new Intake air temperature sensor and although starts are not perfect it seems at least for the moment working ok.
Fiat themselves has no idea what is causing the problem but it is not a single case although the want people to believe that.

By the way, are they now finally also selling the Abarth in Portugal?
My wife is from Lisbon and since 18 Years we travel regularly to Portugal to see family and for vacation.:icon_thumright:
We were there for Christmas and I haven't seen any Abarth and only one 500.:eek:

Greetings from Luxembourg,

Minime911

[Abarthlyness]

Sorry to hear about the rough cold starts for you Abarth guys:(

I'm no expert, but it sounds to me like it is most definitely in the PCM, or car's computer.

When you first start a computer controlled car, for the first minute of so, it is in a "cold start" mode. This mode generally has timing pulled back (or "retarded") and air/fuel mixture very rich so as to protect the cold internal cumbustion chamber components from the "high wear and tear" condition a cold start usually produces.

It sounds liek this cold start mode needs to be tweaked or adjusted by, the dealer i guess, so that it doesn't "stumble" when you first start it.

Unfortunatley, because the Abarth, and especially the SS, are such low volume cars, these few occasions will not get the attension they deserve from your "steelerships"lol

[.Lefteris.]

So far no problem on my SS! :)

[minime911]

Hi,
Well no problem on mine either.... for the moment, maybe the Intake air temperature sensor change was the right thing to do although I prefer changes based on measurements instead of suggestions.

If I had the right measuring device I could analyze it by myself but as the car is still under warranty....:mad:

Greetings:

Minime911

[Jose]

Hello. Thanks for the responses! I went to the dealer today, to plug the computer to the car, and it showed 3 missfires...Cylinder 1,3 and 4. The car is booked tomorrow, to check if it`s bad coils or something else...I hope they resolve this fast. My brother also has an 500 abarth SS and starded having the same problems... My symptons are exactly the same has minime911 have on his SS. After warming a bit the car runs perfect...Maybe, and it makes all sense, is like Abarthlyness says...

minime911:
There are two Abarth dealers in Portugal. Lisbon and Algarve. I bought mine from Lisbon. There aren`t a lot of abarths here, but 500 are very common...There are already Portuguese foruns for fiat 500 and Abarth. :)

Thanks for all the help guys!!

Regards,

Jose

[minime911]

Hi Jose,

One more thing to check is, if the ground wire of the coils is tight bolted down. Apparently this happned before.
The car was doing the same problem before and after the installation of the SS kit, and their start / warmup strategy is the same.

So, get it checked for the intake air temperature sensor. On my car they changed the upper one.
If it had misfire on 3 cylinders they should also check if the converter isn't melted.

Maybe we can meet during summer vacation down there. I should be in Lisbon and in Armacao de Pera during 3 weeks probably this summer.:icon_thumleft:

Greetings:

minime911

[Abarthlyness]

Hi Jose,

One more thing to check is, if the ground wire of the coils is tight bolted down. Apparently this happned before.
The car was doing the same problem before and after the installation of the SS kit, and their start / warmup strategy is the same.

So, get it checked for the intake air temperature sensor. On my car they changed the upper one.
If it had misfire on 3 cylinders they should also check if the converter isn't melted.

Maybe we can meet during summer vacation down there. I should be in Lisbon and in Armacao de Pera during 3 weeks probably this summer.:icon_thumleft:

Greetings:

minime911

Great suggestions Minime :icon_thumright:

BTW, I am jealous!! My wife and I went to Madeira for our honeymoon back in 2005. What a beautiful place! We want to go back, but here in the states, our whole years vacation is only 2 or 3 weeks usually. I know Europeans get much more vacation every year.

I hope Madeira is doing okay with rebuilding after all the flooding...

[VilleV]

I know Europeans get much more vacation every year.


6 weeks for me every year...:D Sorry about the off topic!

[Abarthlyness]

6 weeks for me every year...:D Sorry about the off topic!

I should start a new thread about this... It really needs to be this way in the US! People would be much happier and productive in their jobs.

Course, the unemployment is so rampant now, most folks would take a job with NO vacation at this point...:(

[wreckmaster]

Here the law says atleast 4 weeks! If you are an employee of the state you have 5 weeks and the same if you are with a big private company and are organized in a union:) I have 5 weeks and Guttemamma has 4 weeks:)

[Abarthlyness]

Here the law says atleast 4 weeks! If you are an employee of the state you have 5 weeks and the same if you are with a big private company and are organized in a union:) I have 5 weeks and Guttemamma has 4 weeks:)

Here the norm is 2 weeks. I got to 3 weeks only after being with my company for 5 years. I don't get 4 weeks until 15 years!!! I'll be here for 10 years in May 2011lol

[VilleV]

Two weeks!!:eek: And three after 15 years?! When I´ve been working for my employer for 15 years I get one and a half weeks more every year! That´s 7 and a half weeks yearly! Seems that we have it good up here!!!:cool:

[Abarthlyness]

Yes, you do indeed have it good!!For some reason, some one has decided that Americans need to be work-o-haulics and never get to spend time with their families:(

[alexcoupe]

Good morning my 500 1.2 Sport with this same problem: the Portuguese Fiat is trying to solve the problem but so far without success.
Has anyone managed to solve this problem?

[Abarthlyness]

Good morning my 500 1.2 Sport with this same problem: the Portuguese Fiat is trying to solve the problem but so far without success.
Has anyone managed to solve this problem?

Wow... this is still an issue for some folks??

I went back and re-read all the posts here, and I keep thinking it must be some sort of "cold start" mode that the PCM goes in to on first start up.

Every PCM has it... even my 2.4 liter turbo (2005 car) has a cold start mode, wherein it limits timing, adds fuel and limits boost until the engine temp gets a little warmer.

Maybe the PCM is reading a sensor or two incorrectly for the duration of the cold start period?

I would suggest the dealer start with seeing if they can somehow alter the cold-start portion of your PCM's tune. Course, they may do more harm than good.:rolleyes:

[iraklis]

My abarth had the same problem, It's been to the dealership 3 times for misfire. They changed the spark plugs but still nothing. So i tried a different petrol station and that stopped the problem completely. It's been 2 months since then and everything's fine (touchwood). I don't know. Maybe the warmer weather helped but the problem disappeared completely and as soon as i changed petrol stations. Coincidence?

[minime911]

Hi,

The petrol change also helped an my car but it's just a sign of poor calibration engineering.:(
They just missed to test for different fuel evaps during development.

I just wonder that this still happens as that is part of proper development engineering anfd there was enough time for SW updates.

You will see the start quality again degrade just before winter time when the fuel has changed to high RVP but the temperatures are still to high for winter fuel.(the same for spring time)
I have now 49000 Km's on mine after 2 years and a half and this problem is persistant but I must say that it is the only one.

Greetings:

Minime911

[iraklis]

My car was manufactured on October 2010, so i don't think they've acknowledged the problem since they haven't fix it yet. Aren't you concerned about causing damage to your catalytic converter from all those misfires? I would demand them fixing the problem once for all before the car is out of warranty.

[minime911]

Hi,

No, there is no risk for the converter as it is still cold at start and the misfire only lasts for a few seconds.
Actually the whole problem is most probably part of their cold start converter warmup strategy what they failed to work out correctly for different fuel RVP's.

Greetings:

Minime911

[iraklis]

Minime is your car ok now? Have you find any solution to your problem?

[minime911]

Hi,

Nothing was done to my car to improve that however I have now 55500 Km on the clock and the problem hasn't been there since a few months.
The cold time still has to come and I will report as soon as it does it again.
Should be around 7 degrees cold start (will be in the coming weeks).

Greetings:

minime911

[alexcoupe]

My 500 is in the shop right now with the same problem, replaced the battery, and said it could be. we'll see.
I changed the gas station and improved. but not fully resolved.

[VilleV]

This might be bit of a long shot, but there is some dicussion about this on finnish fiat forum and problem might be (and this is a bad translation because I dont know what the part in question is in english) the "suction pressure sensor". Does anybody know what this might be in english?

[alexcoupe]

My 500 just have arrived from shop, they changed the batery, it looks a litle bether. but the problem it just hapent with the cold weather, and here in Portugal its hot weather. i have to wait for the winter to see.

[minime911]

Hi,

For sure it will not be solved with a battery change and the Map (manifold pressure sensor) is most probably not the solution either.
I suppose that they just didn't make their start calibration correctly for different fuel types and for some reason it seems that 1 or 2 cylinder are misfiring during a cold start.
Sometimes the engine stalls after start or it misfires for a few seconds and runs clean after pushing the accelerator for a moment.
On my car they once changed the spark plugs and later on the intake air temperature sensor without any success for the sensor and maybe a temporary success for the plugs.
Anyway there was nothing wrong with that temperature sensor as it indicated the correct temperature in the ECU data list.
The warranty is off on my car and I will check now by myself if I can find the root cause.
I'm working in the automotive business as development engineer and I know where to start my investigation with the right tools and devices and not just changing parts without a reason as they do in the dealership.:mad:

Greetings:

minime911

[VilleV]

Ok, so we can rule out the MAP then. Hopefully you are able to find a solution to the problem!

[minime911]

Ok, so we can rule out the MAP then. Hopefully you are able to find a solution to the problem!

Hi,

Actually it can be the MAP sensor as it can be any other temperature or even O2 sensor however these sensors output values have to be measured and must be out of range for a given start or running point.
They should not change a part without knowing what they do just because they once heard that on another car that part once broke.
But that's the way they work nowadays in the dealerships as the technical background is missing for a correct analysis.:confused:

Greetings:

minime911

[minime911]

Hi,

And it does it again.....
Yesterday after work about 9 hours soak at 9 degrees outside temperature, started quite well and just stalled immediately afterwards. Restart was ok and engine was running smooth.
Today after work about the same temperature first start a stall, second start a stall and finally third start was successful but slight rough idle.:mad:
I guess that I will hook it up to my computer this weekend but investigation might be long as it only does it during the start at low temperatures and even not all the time.:confused:

[alexcoupe]

The same as myne... :(

[iraklis]

Please keep us posted minime